27ky ya Shahrazade - Long long time ago (3)
و لما كانت الليلة الثالثة من الليالي الألف فتجمع البنات لسرد الحكايات و تطرق الحديث إلى مواضع الغيبيات و في تلك العوالم التي حارت فيها الفكر و أعجزت معانيها عقول البشر، سرح البنات مع تلك العبارات
It was not our intentions to explore the realms of religion in a way to apply a rational or a logical examination of its tenets and systems. What interested me primarily when religion was brought in, was more of an anthropological (and I blame a certain person who shall remain unnamed, you know who you are!), I was interested in religion as an key component of identity formation. I was very curious of how other people articulate this experience, whether positively or negatively, whether it did really play any role or not and if it did, how, why and what.
In a way, how does religion figure in between being a personal and individual experience and practice and a social marker and element of a socialization process.
Yet this time, for some reason the stories took a very decided turn towards the very elements of religion itself, morality, metaphysics, history,.....etc.
While recounting their personal stories, a lot of questions were raised about the importance of metaphysical belief in defining a religious experience, especially to the mystical-minded Egyptians. However, one can argue that the spread of populist movements like Salafism replaced the spiritual fervour of mystical traditions with a rather literalist dogma.
Beside the point, for certain individuals who grew up in a secular or atheist context, and some find this hard to believe in a country where the majority overwhelming define religion as an essential component of their identity, but yes some Egyptians grew up in secular and non-believing families! They are definitely a minority, but they represent a segment of the social spectrum and their experience with religion, or the absence of it, tells us a lot about how, someone from the outside understands or relates to religion.
For while they did not engage with its rituals and did not observe mandates, they still internalised a certain social ethic that transcended religious belief. So for example their social outlook when it came such issues as relationship, modesty, gender roles, remained, unusually conservative.
Or at the very least reserved.
And by them, I don't mean those individuals alone, I mean their families and their immediate social milieu.
So even if your parents were communist, socialist, atheists, you still had curfew, pre-marital sex was still out of the question, and you lived with your parents even after your turned 21.
Which I find fascinating that the anti-religious attitude does not directly translate into a liberal outlook on gender attitudes for example or sexual norms. Those remained primarily within the sphere of influence of culture and tradition. The anti-religion attitude or mindset does not go beyond an intellectual position, not a social position.
Which in itself might explain exact similar attitudes for those who are religious.
A lot of said religiosity does not directly stem from an intellectual understanding or application of religion or religiously-derived morality, but rather from social conviction and culturally mediated values.
There is plenty of what we perceive as "wrong" that is entirely based on social attitudes or understanding of propriety in relation to class, status and in some case ethnic group for example (Nubians)
It is these elements that form the moral and ethical landscape rather than religion or the lack thereof per se.
This is not of course to say that is strictly socially determined or that it is socially deterministic.
But rather that socialization in that sense has a significant constitutive capacity when it comes to religion and morality and our understanding of gender roles and sexuality.
Regardless of where we are on the faith scale.
Some of us had experiences where our families were exposed to a very specific acculturation process (biracial marriages, family members educated abroad, a certain socio-economic standing and so on) and we are very tempted to deny that 'society's' general attitude towards religion and culture affected us in any way. Or that our experience is the authentic, normative experience that should be used as a reference point.
As idealistic as this sounds, it is not true.
However, I still find it fascinating this keen sense of individuality persists when we talk about our personal histories or mnemonic narratives.
But here comes the keyword, reference-points
و عندئذ أصاب البنات حالة من الذهول و تطرق يتفكرون في عالم المُثل و حارت البنات في تقسير معنى المرجعيات و ماهية البديهيات و ساد الهرج و المرج و كاد الحديث أن ينقلب ببنج
As we were confronted with the problem of perception and knowledge and how do we get to understand social experiences and the philosophical debates relating to all this, what would be worth mentioning is everyone's reference-points for how they first realized their sexuality while still within the 'fold of faith'. So one participant told the story about he used to pray to see his sexy neighbour and how he truly believed that if prayed wholeheartedly God would actually listen. And how later on when he heard the Islamic orthodox view of homosexuality he thought it was absurd to the extent of being funny.
And I would have liked to hear more stories about each one at first reconciled (or not) themselves with religion and how this understanding evolved over time.
I think for next time, the philosophical discussions on religion can be saved for another series of events and we can talk more about stories that have to do with personal experiences away from debating the permissibility of one practice or another or the progressive nature of such and such ideas or school of thought within a certain religious tradition.
It was not our intentions to explore the realms of religion in a way to apply a rational or a logical examination of its tenets and systems. What interested me primarily when religion was brought in, was more of an anthropological (and I blame a certain person who shall remain unnamed, you know who you are!), I was interested in religion as an key component of identity formation. I was very curious of how other people articulate this experience, whether positively or negatively, whether it did really play any role or not and if it did, how, why and what.
In a way, how does religion figure in between being a personal and individual experience and practice and a social marker and element of a socialization process.
Yet this time, for some reason the stories took a very decided turn towards the very elements of religion itself, morality, metaphysics, history,.....etc.
While recounting their personal stories, a lot of questions were raised about the importance of metaphysical belief in defining a religious experience, especially to the mystical-minded Egyptians. However, one can argue that the spread of populist movements like Salafism replaced the spiritual fervour of mystical traditions with a rather literalist dogma.
Beside the point, for certain individuals who grew up in a secular or atheist context, and some find this hard to believe in a country where the majority overwhelming define religion as an essential component of their identity, but yes some Egyptians grew up in secular and non-believing families! They are definitely a minority, but they represent a segment of the social spectrum and their experience with religion, or the absence of it, tells us a lot about how, someone from the outside understands or relates to religion.
For while they did not engage with its rituals and did not observe mandates, they still internalised a certain social ethic that transcended religious belief. So for example their social outlook when it came such issues as relationship, modesty, gender roles, remained, unusually conservative.
Or at the very least reserved.
And by them, I don't mean those individuals alone, I mean their families and their immediate social milieu.
So even if your parents were communist, socialist, atheists, you still had curfew, pre-marital sex was still out of the question, and you lived with your parents even after your turned 21.
Which I find fascinating that the anti-religious attitude does not directly translate into a liberal outlook on gender attitudes for example or sexual norms. Those remained primarily within the sphere of influence of culture and tradition. The anti-religion attitude or mindset does not go beyond an intellectual position, not a social position.
Which in itself might explain exact similar attitudes for those who are religious.
A lot of said religiosity does not directly stem from an intellectual understanding or application of religion or religiously-derived morality, but rather from social conviction and culturally mediated values.
There is plenty of what we perceive as "wrong" that is entirely based on social attitudes or understanding of propriety in relation to class, status and in some case ethnic group for example (Nubians)
It is these elements that form the moral and ethical landscape rather than religion or the lack thereof per se.
This is not of course to say that is strictly socially determined or that it is socially deterministic.
But rather that socialization in that sense has a significant constitutive capacity when it comes to religion and morality and our understanding of gender roles and sexuality.
Regardless of where we are on the faith scale.
Some of us had experiences where our families were exposed to a very specific acculturation process (biracial marriages, family members educated abroad, a certain socio-economic standing and so on) and we are very tempted to deny that 'society's' general attitude towards religion and culture affected us in any way. Or that our experience is the authentic, normative experience that should be used as a reference point.
As idealistic as this sounds, it is not true.
However, I still find it fascinating this keen sense of individuality persists when we talk about our personal histories or mnemonic narratives.
But here comes the keyword, reference-points
و عندئذ أصاب البنات حالة من الذهول و تطرق يتفكرون في عالم المُثل و حارت البنات في تقسير معنى المرجعيات و ماهية البديهيات و ساد الهرج و المرج و كاد الحديث أن ينقلب ببنج
As we were confronted with the problem of perception and knowledge and how do we get to understand social experiences and the philosophical debates relating to all this, what would be worth mentioning is everyone's reference-points for how they first realized their sexuality while still within the 'fold of faith'. So one participant told the story about he used to pray to see his sexy neighbour and how he truly believed that if prayed wholeheartedly God would actually listen. And how later on when he heard the Islamic orthodox view of homosexuality he thought it was absurd to the extent of being funny.
And I would have liked to hear more stories about each one at first reconciled (or not) themselves with religion and how this understanding evolved over time.
I think for next time, the philosophical discussions on religion can be saved for another series of events and we can talk more about stories that have to do with personal experiences away from debating the permissibility of one practice or another or the progressive nature of such and such ideas or school of thought within a certain religious tradition.
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